Curse

Tarun · May 30, 2007, 12:12 AM // 00:12

/signed - for once, freek has a really good idea.

freeked actually has a really good idea that can add more items as goldsinks and do things to the economy. Obviously if these items were added they would work towards titles as well. If you don't like the items, don't buy them. If you don't wanna work on the titles, don't buy them. Plus, these items add fun for many players. Just because some people don't like them doesn't mean others won't. Everyone is different.

All those opposed, try this: If you don't like them, don't buy them. All of your negativity and whining about wanting an item that you'd never have to interact with unless you choose is uncalled for.

Crazyvietguy · May 30, 2007, 12:16 AM // 00:16

First of all, this would make the Death Penalty completely worthless. More over, if this put into circulation crappier and crappier PvE builds will flood the guild wars world because people can be essentially death free. Since there will be no penalty for dying besides those seconds that one is down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarun

All those opposed, try this: If you don't like them, don't buy them.

A little food for thought... Do you enjoy the rising gas prices? No, who WANTS to pay more money to drive. Well if we all took your mentality, we would all stop buying gas, thus stop driving cars. Which would in-turn cripple the economy, not such a good idea, eh?

If DP removals are introduced to unlimited circulation this game will go into the shitter. However, to meet you halfway, if they were "rewards" for boss drops, much like passage scrolls and tomes, I would totally support the idea.

/signed, If and only if, they are Hard Mode reward drops.

freekedoutfish · May 30, 2007, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist

It's not a good idea, since Guild Wars is based around perfecting yourself to fit the area you face. These items allow you to face hard mode without really facing the penalties of death, assuming you've got the money for it.

Plus, you've got insight scrolls which do have the same purpose, but nobody seems to use them. As I said before, prevention is better than a cure.

As I explained, I accept scrolls exist. But their only effective if your have a creature to kill or your able to kill. If you have vanquished an area and you have 5 creatures left, and your nearly all on -60dp how is a scroll of any use?

You cant near enough to kill anything to remove any dp, and there isnt enough of them to remove ample enough dp.

Scrolls depend upon there being enough creatures to kill, to take advantage of it. Its not an effective way to remove dp, and its not a "prevention" of dp, because you get dp from dieing!

How does activating a scroll, stop you dieing?

Kale Ironfist · May 30, 2007, 10:58 AM // 10:58

It's a prevention from getting anywhere near 60% DP and therefore getting booted from the map. Plus, if you're able to survive so that there's only a few mobs left, the scroll and hard mode xp bonus would drastically reduce the penalty of death.

After all is said and done, the only thing you can do is improve your strategy, which prevents you from dying in the first place. Relying on items to remove maxed out DP (or close to max) just shows that your build wasn't good enough in the first place, since it reached a critical point that could have booted you from finally vanquishing the area.

freekedoutfish · May 30, 2007, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist

It's a prevention from getting anywhere near 60% DP and therefore getting booted from the map. Plus, if you're able to survive so that there's only a few mobs left, the scroll and hard mode xp bonus would drastically reduce the penalty of death.

After all is said and done, the only thing you can do is improve your strategy, which prevents you from dying in the first place. Relying on items to remove maxed out DP (or close to max) just shows that your build wasn't good enough in the first place, since it reached a critical point that could have booted you from finally vanquishing the area.

Maybe im being stupid, but how is a scroll a prevention to getting anywhere nera 60%. Scrolls dont stop you dieing, and as I said, they require kills to remove the dp.

Your relying on there being enough creatures in the area, or left, for the scroll to be effective.

Dont get me wrong, Ill try it out and if it helps then great. But I dont see it as a truly effective solution.

MagmaRed · May 30, 2007, 03:19 PM // 15:19

When you FIRST enter an area, you have 0% DP. Now, go about killing stuff to Vanquish. After you die your FIRST time, use an XP Scroll, and go continue Vanquishing. The monsters you kill will quickly remove your 15% DP. If the scroll expires, and you still have DP, decide if its enough DP to use another scroll, or to wait.

By doing this, you gain enough XP from kills, that the DP should never go over 15%. Even if your build sucks, and you die a few times, you should be able to kill enough monsters to lower the DP before hitting a point where only 5 monsters are left, or your DP makes you die instantly.

Sofonisba · May 30, 2007, 11:29 PM // 23:29

How is buying a scroll any different than buying a candy cane... thus goeth the "buying one's way through hard mode" argument...

As it is, those unfortunates who missed out on special weekends (I missed farming clovers, but luckily had lots of ccs from Wintersday though) are at a disadvantage for HM.

I can't believe all the elitists who've come out of the woodwork in this thread. It's happened to all of us who were not born with a leet spoon in our mouths. Mistakes happen, bad aggro, close saves, give us a little bit of breathing room with a dp remover, so we can try to salvage our time and effort.

HM will still be HM with or without candy canes, clovers, cupcakes. I would think no less of someone who has Legendary Guardian, even if they told me they indulged in the ol' peppermint candy cane once in a while. Would you? I mean if you REALLY REALLY suck as a player, ccs/clovers won't save you.

So many doomsayers around here! Everything ANet does means (to some people) that all of a sudden the noobs will be out in force and you won't be able to resist their devilish charms, they'll be in yer groupz, ruinin' yer vanquishez... Got news for you. Whether or not a candy cane-type-item is available to purchase from another player, from a merchant, or come as a drop... noobs will always exist.

The compromise is very simple: make dp removal items drop in HM. Not every monster, not as commonly as during holidays, but allow them to drop occasionally. A gift from the gods sometimes, when you need it the most.

Kale Ironfist · May 31, 2007, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Considering how Hard Mode was FOR the elitists, who believed normal mode PvE was too easy, and didn't want to PvP, I'd say that mistakes, bad aggro and close saves are those times that show that you could have improved yourself.

Also, insight scrolls don't instantly shave off all your DP, you still have to work for it, and the effect of 5 (cost 1 platinum) or even 4 (800 gold) is worth far more than 60% DP. Sure, it takes a lot longer to get those effects, but its worth it.

Now, your suggestion to let them drop, albeit rarely, is probably the better idea, as it's now based on chance rather than who has the most gold to spend. I don't agree with it, but it's better than having CCs or Clovers for sale at the merchant.

Plus, the only reason I brought up the idea of scrolls was because I hero/hench, and they don't get the hard mode bonus of +50% xp. Only rainbow CCs and Clovers remove DP off party members and the amount of DP lost, in my opinion, was not worth it. Scrolls are cheaper, drop from bosses, and don't count as a 'second chance at a monetary cost'.

Emik · May 31, 2007, 01:01 AM // 01:01

/notsigned.
If you get killed by the last 5 enemies that means you've been doing something wrong all map.
The reason why the "all team 60% DP = rezone" is there is to make it a challenge.
Coming up with an alternative to Candy Canes, Clovers etc (basically anything that's AN EVENT ITEM) takes away that very mechanic that distinguishes the Leeroys from the rest.

cellardweller · May 31, 2007, 01:20 AM // 01:20

/signed simply so I can actually take the time to enjoy events rather than being pressured to farm CC's etc to supply myself for the year.

CoopaTroopa · May 31, 2007, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Hard mode will be hard no matter what kind of dp reducing items are in the game. Not everyone has cc's or clovers, but everyone has access to them. Adding a new item wouldn't make it any easier; YOU CAN ALREADY "BUY" YOUR WAY THROUGH HARD MODE. You just have to buy these items from players instead of merchants. Now, I don't think that these should be added in game either way, mostly because it would further discourage player interaction (which I think is more and more lacking with the introduction of heroes). That said, I wouldn't complain if they added some kind of item that would remove a small amount of party-wide dp to help people through tough parts. But just remember, if you can't make it through the majority of hard mode without special items, they wouldn't save you. These items can not turn a poor player into a good one, but they can help in tough circumstances.

Avarre · May 31, 2007, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Deal with your death penalty and stop dying, sheesh. Get better, don't make the game easier.

/not signed

Verkinix · May 31, 2007, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Some of the most commonly overlooked useful buff items are the "chef" items in noobland elona. Those salad, soups, kabobs have saved my butt in HM several times over.

I would like to have some sort of candy cane equivalent, but not as a merchant item. I would like to see you have to vanquish an area or complete a HM area and then you get maybe 3 dp removers/reducers/moral boosts as a reward. At least that would give us something worthwhile by the end and give us something to look forward to for completing HM stuff.

Gaia_Hunter · May 31, 2007, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Nah.

If anything I would say they shouldnt allow scrolls nor canes/cakes/whatever in HM.

You die u die, and just because someone dont have shit to do during x-mas other than grabing noob items, and then use them in hm and say they are l33t, and that noobody else should be l33t, cause they dont have "click me to remove stupidiness" items nor should be allowed to buy them cause then everyone could be l33t instead of those that played during day x and not day y, theres no reason to someone grab some advantage.

My drunken 2 cents.

freekedoutfish · May 31, 2007, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist

Considering how Hard Mode was FOR the elitists, who believed normal mode PvE was too easy, and didn't want to PvP, I'd say that mistakes, bad aggro and close saves are those times that show that you could have improved yourself.

Damn I wish I had that screen capture with me to prove my point here! You say HM is for the elite players who you presume know what their doing right?

I had a fire elemental try to join our hard mode pug with NO attunement, 3 scattering spells and 2 spells that caused exhaustion! He had absolutely no way of stealing or returning energy from spells!

I captured his build to, and I wish I had it!!

Not everyone who does HM is an elite player, alot are actually complete and utter noobs (i hate that word, but if you had seen this player, you would agree)!

I tried to ask "where is your energy return" and he just continued to spam his energy level, which was at 85 I think! He was very quickly kicked!

Kale Ironfist · May 31, 2007, 08:07 AM // 08:07

When ArenaNet unveiled Hard Mode, they said it would be hard. Thus, I am justified for my comment on 'FOR the elitists'.

That does not mean the community does what ArenaNet intends, as you've demonstrated with an example of someone who doesn't understand the fundamentals of hard mode.

freekedoutfish · May 31, 2007, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist

When ArenaNet unveiled Hard Mode, they said it would be hard. Thus, I am justified for my comment on 'FOR the elitists'.

That does not mean the community does what ArenaNet intends, as you've demonstrated with an example of someone who doesn't understand the fundamentals of hard mode.

Im not disagreeing! I think hard mode should be more the "experienced" (im not using the l33t word as it doesnt always apply) players.

I've made posts in the past suggesting we put restrictions in to keep noob players out such as the one I mentioned above. Imagine if we hadnt asked him to ping his build and just gone into battle. He would have been useless.

But there are too fue people doing HM to put restrictions on!

But just because a player is experienced, doesnt mean they cant ask for a bit of help in the form of candy canes or some other dp removal food. I like a challenge as much as the next person, and I love hard mode. But when it starts to be frustrating, it removes the fun.

I admit, maybe im using a bad team or hero builds, because Im not an expert in every profession. I also admit I will try the scrolls.

But you rased one of my key points!!! Do scrolls effect AI such as heroes and henches in HM? If not, then their not an effective means to remove dp if you choose to use heroes and henches.

Its not enough to simply remove the dp from yourself, if the rest of your team is on -60dp and useless.

SuperDave · May 31, 2007, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

But there are too few people doing HM to put restrictions on!

Sadly, that is so true. I have to admit, I've come across quite a few players that might not have had the best/wiki builds, and they might use unconventional tactics, but they do pull their weight in the end, and play really well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Its not enough to simply remove the dp from yourself, if the rest of your team is on -60dp and useless.

This has happened to me so many times while vanquising. I'd be running around the place with a morale boost, and my heroes and henchies have a -60DP. So, as you can imagine, if anything so much as looks at one of them it's an instant death.

Now I for one would like to see more DP removal items. Not a unlimited supply, it should still be pretty hard to come by. I ran out of 4 leaf clovers about 1 week into HM. I used most of it exploring the RoT with my warrior before HM, and had about 20 or so left to use in HM. Which I used (and mangaged to get guardian of tyria and cantha with).

Maybe make them drop al the time? Like with tome's. And make them drop exclusively in Hard Mode

Kale Ironfist · May 31, 2007, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

But you rased one of my key points!!! Do scrolls effect AI such as heroes and henches in HM? If not, then their not an effective means to remove dp if you choose to use heroes and henches.

Its not enough to simply remove the dp from yourself, if the rest of your team is on -60dp and useless.

Scrolls affect the entire party, so yes they do get it (you can buy a scroll and check it out for yourself). It's one of the few ways to get any decent DP decay on heroes since they don't get the hard mode bonus.

freekedoutfish · May 31, 2007, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist

Scrolls affect the entire party, so yes they do get it (you can buy a scroll and check it out for yourself). It's one of the few ways to get any decent DP decay on heroes since they don't get the hard mode bonus.

Fair enough. I still wont agree its an ideal way to remove DP, but ill give it a try!